アンスウェラー

Seems like most gunners have a really hard time understanding 1 + 1 = 2

All of the scenario are based on a PVE context.

PVP is a separate thing since the p.def/m.def of enemies are higher, and pulses and such skew numbers.

Damage boost is a static value when it comes to comparison.

e.g.

A = 100
B = 10

A = 10x more than B

A = 100 x 10 = 1000
B = 10 x 10 = 100

A = still 10x more than B

Hence they are removed from the comparisons.

---

Hypothesis 1: Magic don’t add much damage for a MB gunner

Situation 1
Gunner A: Level 90, assuming 70 base rng.atk, 10 base m.atk, 90 base magic, class 5 MB, 0 boost.
Gunner B: Level 90, assuming 70 base rng.atk, 10 base m.atk, 90 luck, class 5 MB, 0 boost.
30 rng.atk, 30 m.atk gun assumed for both.
Victim, Deformed Kirin: 17 P.Def

Derived combat stat for Gunner A = 70+30+(90/4)+(10+30)/2 = 100 + 22 + 20 => 142
Derived combat stat for Gunner B = 70+30 + (10+30)/2 = 100 + 20 -> 120

Damage for Gunner A = (((142 * 1.07) + 50) – 17) * 0.895 = 184 * 0.895 = 164 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((120 * 1.07) + 50) – 17) * 0.895 = 161 * 0.895 = 144 damage average

Gunner A does 164/144 * 100 = 13% more damage assuming both gunners have 0% chance to crit.

Gunner A critical damage = ((142 x 1.07) + 50 )* 1.2 = 242 damage
Gunner B critical damage = ((120 x 1.07) + 50) * 1.2 = 214 damage

Assuming Gunner A has 0% chance to crit.

(144 * (100-x)) + (214 * x)/100 = 164
(144 * (100-x)) + (214 * x) = 16 400
14400-144x+214x = 16400
14400+70x = 16400
70x = 16400 -14400 = 2000
x = 2000/70 = ~28%

Gunner B needs 28% chance to crit in order to match the average damage done by Gunner A.

Assuming Gunner A has a 10% chance to crit, Gunner’s A average damage will be:

(167 x 0.9) + (244x 0.1) = 174

(144 * (100-x)) + (214 * x)/100 = 174
(144 * (100-x)) + (214 * x) = 17400
14400-144x+214x = 17400
14400+70x = 17400
70x = 17400 -14400 = 3000
x = 3000/70 = ~42%

Gunner B needs 42% (32% more) chance to crit in order to match the average damage done by Gunner A.

===

Situation 2

Assuming a 60 p,def mob. (Doesn’t exist in a PVE context)

Damage for Gunner A = (((142 * 1.07) + 50) – 60) * 0.895 = 141 * 0.895 = 126 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((120 * 1.07) + 50) – 60) * 0.895 = 118 * 0.895 = 105 damage average

Gunner A does 126/105 * 100 = 20% more damage assuming both gunners have 0% chance to crit.

Gunner A critical damage = ((142 x 1.07) + 50 )* 1.2 = 242 damage
Gunner B critical damage = ((120 x 1.07) + 50) * 1.2 = 214 damage

Assuming Gunner A has 0% chance to crit.

(105 * (100-x)) + (214 * x)/100 = 126
(105 * (100-x)) + (214 * x) = 126 00
10500-105x+214x = 126 00
10500+109x = 12600
109x = 12600 – 10500 = 2100
x = 2100/109 = ~19%

Gunner B needs 19% chance to crit in order to match the average damage done by Gunner A.

Assuming Gunner A has a 10% chance to crit, Gunner’s A average damage will be:

(126 x 0.9) + (242x 0.1) = 137

(105 * (100-x)) + (214 * x)/100 = 137
(105 * (100-x)) + (214 * x) = 137 00
10500-105x+214x = 137 00
10500+109x = 13700
109x = 13700 – 10500 = 3200
x = 3200/109 = ~29%

Gunner B needs 29% (19% more) chance to crit in order to match the average damage done by Gunner A.

The higher the p.def ot the mob, the lesser Gunner B needs to crit in order to match Gunner A.

===

Situation 3,

Gunner A: Level 90, assuming 170 base rng.atk, 10 base m.atk, 90 base magic, class 5 MB, 0 boost.
Gunner B: Level 90, assuming 170 base rng.atk, 10 base m.atk, 90 luck, class 5 MB, 0 boost.
30 rng.atk, 30 m.atk gun assumed for both.
Victim, Nightmare Kirin: 17 P.Def

Derived combat stat for Gunner A = 170+30+(90/4)+(10+30)/2 = 200 + 22 + 20 => 242
Derived combat stat for Gunner B = 170+30 + (10+30)/2 = 200 + 20 -> 220

Damage for Gunner A = (((242 * 1.07) + 50) – 17) * 0.895 = 291 * 0.895 = 261 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((220 * 1.07) + 50) – 17) * 0.895 = 268 * 0.895 = 240 damage average

Gunner A does 291/268 * 100 = 8% more damage assuming both gunners have 0% chance to crit.

Gunner A critical damage = ((242 x 1.07) + 50 )* 1.2 = 370 damage
Gunner B critical damage = ((220 x 1.07) + 50) * 1.2 = 342 damage

Assuming Gunner A has 0% chance to crit.

(240 * (100-x)) + (342 * x)/100 = 261
(240 * (100-x)) + (342 * x) = 261 00
24000-240x+342x = 261 00
24000+102x = 26 100
102x = 26 100 – 24 000 = 2100
x = 2100/102 = ~20%

Gunner B needs 20% chance to crit in order to match the average damage done by Gunner A.

Assuming Gunner A has a 10% chance to crit, Gunner’s A average damage will be:

(291 x 0.9) + (370 x 0.1) = 272

(240 * (100-x)) + (342 * x)/100 = 272
(240 * (100-x)) + (342 * x) = 27 200
24000-240x+342x = 27 00
24000+102x = 27 200
102x = 27 200 – 24 000 = 3200
x = 3200/102 = ~31%

Gunner B needs 31% (21% more) chance to crit in order to match the average damage done by Gunner A.

===
Summary: You secondary stat actually contribute a fair bit of damage even though it’s “only” 24(99 base in secondary) at best.

In close to a worst case scenario, it’s still a good 8% more.

As a whole, your secondary stat is also better than luck since most mobs in PVE have low defense.

Your secondary stat also becomes more important as you gain more crit.

Of course, NOT maxing your PRIMARY stat is an even dumber idea if the focus is on damage.

This will be covered partly in the next simulation.

---

Hypothesis 2: Kali rocks for Gunners. (This simulation is done with “lovely” memory for a certain “Sui”eet gunner.)

Situation A

Gunner A: Level 90, 150 rng.atk before Hresvelgr.
Gunner B: Level 90, 150 rng.atk Kali user.
Gunner C: Level 90, 150 rng.atk before Sun tarots.

Gunner A’s final derived stat = 150 + (13*3)/2 = 169
Gunner C’s final dervied stat = 150 + (13*2)/2 = 163

Assuming class 7 shot and using range shot against Kirin:

Damage for Gunner A = (((169 * 1.00) + 35) – 17) * 0.895 = 187 * 0.895 = 167 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((150 * 1.00) + 35) – 17) * 0.895 = 168 * 0.895 = 150 damage average
Damage for Gunner C = (((163 * 1.00) + 35) – 17) * 0.895 = 181 * 0.895 = 161 damage average

Critical for Gunner A = ((169 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 244
Critical for Gunner B = ((150 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 222
Critical for Gunner C = ((163 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 237

Gunner A does 167/150 = 11% more damage than B.
Gunner A does 167/161 = 3% more damage than C.

Assuming Gunner A has 0 crit,
Gunner B needs 19% crit chance to equal A’s damage.
Gunner C needs 5% crit chance to equal A’s damage.

Assuming Gunner A has 10% crit,
Gunner B needs 34% (24% more) chance to equal A’s damage.
Gunner C needs 17% (7% more) chance to equal A’s damage.

Assuming class 7 shot and using range shot against a 60 p.def mob:

Damage for Gunner A = (((169 * 1.00) + 35) – 60) * 0.895 = 144 * 0.895 = 128 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((150 * 1.00) + 35) – 60) * 0.895 = 125 * 0.895 = 111 damage average
Damage for Gunner C = (((163 * 1.00) + 35) – 60) * 0.895 = 138 * 0.895 = 123 damage average

Critical for Gunner A = ((169 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 244
Critical for Gunner B = ((150 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 222
Critical for Gunner C = ((163 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 237

Gunner A 128/111 = 15% more damage than B.
Gunner A 128/123 = 4% more damage than C.

Assuming Gunner A has 0 crit,
Gunner B needs 15% crit chance to equal A’s damage.
Gunner C needs 4% crit chance to equal A’s damage.

Assuming Gunner A has 10% crit,
Gunner B needs 26% (16% more) chance to equal A’s damage.
Gunner C needs 15% (5% more) chance to equal A’s damage.

===
Situation B

Gunner A: Level 90, 200 rng.atk before Hresvelgr.
Gunner B: Level 90, 200 rng.atk Kali user.
Gunner C: Level 90, 200 rng.atk before Sun tarots.

Gunner A’s final derived stat = 200 + (13*3)/2 = 219
Gunner C’s final dervied stat = 200 + (13*2)/2 = 213

Assuming class 7 shot and using range shot against Kirin:

Damage for Gunner A = (((219 * 1.00) + 35) – 17) * 0.895 = 237 * 0.895 = 212 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((200 * 1.00) + 35) – 17) * 0.895 = 218 * 0.895 = 195 damage average
Damage for Gunner C = (((213 * 1.00) + 35) – 17) * 0.895 = 231 * 0.895 = 206 damage average

Critical for Gunner A = ((219 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 304
Critical for Gunner B = ((200 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 282
Critical for Gunner C = ((213 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 297

Gunner A does 212/195 = 8% more damage than B.
Gunner A does 212/206 = 2% more damage than C.

Assuming Gunner A has 0 crit,
Gunner B needs 19% crit chance to equal A’s damage.
Gunner C needs 5% crit chance to equal A’s damage.

Assuming Gunner A has 10% crit,
Gunner B needs 30% (20% more) chance to equal A’s damage.
Gunner C needs 16% (6% more) chance to equal A’s damage.

Assuming class 7 shot and using range shot against a 60 p.def mob:

Damage for Gunner A = (((219 * 1.00) + 35) – 60) * 0.895 = 194 * 0.895 = 173 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((200 * 1.00) + 35) – 60) * 0.895 = 175 * 0.895 = 156 damage average
Damage for Gunner C = (((213 * 1.00) + 35) – 60) * 0.895 = 188 * 0.895 = 168 damage average

Critical for Gunner A = ((219 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 304
Critical for Gunner B = ((200 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 282
Critical for Gunner C = ((213 * 1.00) + 35) * 1.2 = 297

Gunner A 173/156 = 10% more damage than B.
Gunner A 173/168 = 2% more damage than C.

Assuming Gunner A has 0 crit,
Gunner B needs 13% crit chance to equal A’s damage.
Gunner C needs 4% crit chance to equal A’s damage.

Assuming Gunner A has 10% crit,
Gunner B needs 24% (14% more) chance to equal A’s damage.
Gunner C needs 14% (4% more) chance to equal A’s damage.

I highly doubt any gunner hit 150 rng.atk without +speed tarots, much less 200 rng.atk.

The lesser rng.atk you have, the lesser the benefit crit gives. The more crit you have, the more important rng.atk becomes.

You shouldn’t, in most situation favor gaining crit if it requires you to lose rng.attack.

Let’s not forget the secondary effects brought about by speed, i.e. cool/cast reduction. This of course applies more to MB than Rapid.

Full Kurama Tengu is similarly a dumb idea as you lose too much rng.atk for a insignificant amount of crit.

Full Sun is about the only sane option a crit-based gunner should consider, or a well calculated and balanced mix of Kali + Hresvelgr.

Hypothesis 3: MB’s 107 modifier is inferior to Rapid’s 140

Situation 1
Gunner A: Level 90, assuming 70 base rng.atk, 10 base m.atk, 90 base magic, class 5 MB
Gunner B: Level 90, assuming 70 base rng.atk, class 8 Rapid.

Gun used: 30 rng.atk, 15 m.atk

Gunner A final derived combat stat = 70+30 + (10+15+(90/2))/2 = 100 + 35 = 135
Gunner B final derived combat stat = 100

Victim = Deformed Kirin

Damage for Gunner A = (((135 * 1.07) + 50) – 17) * 0.895 = 168 * 0.895 = 150 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((100 * 1.40) + 40) – 17) * 0.895 = 163 * 0.895 = 145 damage average

Wait a minute… MB does more damage than Rapid even though Rapid’s modifier is higher?!

===

Situation 2
Gunner A: Level 90, assuming 100 base rng.atk, 10 base m.atk, 90 base magic, class 5 MB
Gunner B: Level 90, assuming 100 base rng.atk, class 8 Rapid.

Gun used: 30 rng.atk, 15 m.atk

Gunner A final derived combat stat = 100+30 + (10+15+(90/2))/2 = 130 + 35 = 165
Gunner B final derived combat stat = 130

Victim = Deformed Kirin

Damage for Gunner A = (((165 * 1.07) + 50) – 17) * 0.895 = 209 * 0.895 = 271 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((130 * 1.40) + 40) – 17) * 0.895 = 205 * 0.895 = 266 damage average

MB still does more damage than Rapid…

===

Situation 3
Gunner A: Level 90, assuming 150 base rng.atk, 10 base m.atk, 90 base magic, class 5 MB
Gunner B: Level 90, assuming 150 base rng.atk, class 8 Rapid.

Gun used: 40 rng.atk, 30 m.atk

Gunner A final derived combat stat = 150+40 + (10+30+(90/2))/2 = 190 + 42 = 232
Gunner B final derived combat stat = 190

Damage for Gunner A = (((165 * 1.07) + 50) – 17) * 0.895 = 281 * 0.895 = 357 damage average
Damage for Gunner B = (((130 * 1.40) + 40) – 17) * 0.895 = 289 * 0.895 = 367 damage average

Rapid finally does more damage than MB…

So what does this proof? Modifier aren’t everything when it comes to damage calculation. The presence of a secondary combat stat, expert skill modifiers etc… are just as important.

Most MB gunners are also going to have higher speed/rng attack scores than rapid gunners based on the single fact that MB gunners are more likely to max out shot/gun knowledge.

The problem with MB gunners isn’t modifier.

The actual problem is the cool/cast issue with MB skills, and the fact that people greatly underestimate the influence a secondary combat stat brings.

Range shot/spiral shot/yada yada not being influenced by a secondary combat stat is another.

With +activation stuff on, a proper max speed/magic does similar levels of damage as a rapid over a similar period of time. Stack Chiaki/SA/etc… and a MB gunner starts to chain shots like a rapid gunner.

Of course a rapid gunner have the advantage of much faster attacks on a more reliable basis.

Then again, this entire argument is rendered close to useless in current JP gameplay since getting 13 Hecatonchires is much easier than getting 13 emperors, resulting in rapid gunners having potentially higher boosts than MB gunners.